2019年11月7日，挪威奥斯陆大学法学院玛丽亚·伦德伯格教授做客云南大学法学院，并接受我院新媒体运营中心“访问法学家”栏目的采访。玛丽亚教授来自北欧，坚韧不乏温柔，幽默富有理性。在短短半个小时里，教授答疑解惑，与采访的同学们亲密交谈。采访同学不仅初步了解了可持续发展与少数人权利的理论与现状，也感受到这位法学院老朋友的独特的人格魅力。以下是采访内容：

玛丽亚·伦德伯格教授，挪威奥斯陆大学法学院教授、云南大学与中央民族大学客座教授。

问题一：

玛丽亚教授，很高兴见到您。首先，感谢您接受新媒体的采访，感谢您杰出的学术成就以及为发展少数人权利所做出的贡献。时间飞逝，转眼您在中国的研究已有二十多年的经验，特别是和云南大学的合作刚满二十年，很有纪念意义。您能否从学术交流、人才培养或者国际友谊等方面，简单回顾这二十年间与云南大学的合作。比如，您对云南大学印象最深的是什么？

Nice to meet you, Professor Maria. First of all, thank you for accepting our interview. Thank you for your outstanding academic achievements and contributions to minority rights. Time passes quickly, and you have more than 20 years of experience in research in China. In particular, the cooperation with Yunnan University has just been 20 years and it is very memorable. Can you briefly conclude the cooperation with Yunnan University in the aspects of academic exchange, talent cultivation or international friendship? For example, what is your deepest impression on Yunnan University?

玛丽亚教授：

对于云南大学，我印象最深刻的是它对不同观点所秉持着的开放态度。我认为，这是云南大学为何在学术发展和学生交流方面如此优秀的原因，这也与云南省有多元民族的省情密不可分。

作为一名外籍教师，我认为云南大学法学院的老师与学生都非常乐于沟通与交流。尽管他们有着不同的观点，并且要维持这种不同需要很大努力，但是大家会自信而积极地坚定那些不同的声音。除此之外，云南大学的民族法起步较早，发展较为全面，并且在此领域有很多杰出的学者，这也是我来到云南大学的一个原因。因为我知道，与云大法学院的其他部门法相比，民族法的学术发展非常出色，这对于一项学科的学术研究与国际交流有着不可替代的意义。这二十年的沟通与交流也证实了我的选择是正确的。

Profession Maria：

The deepest impression I think is the openness of all the students and teachers to receive. People here are very polite to foreign people. It is not only about being treated well in the academic corporation, also has a constructive exchange. For example, Yunnan university is so open to different points of view, and I think this is why YNU so good at opening for academic and student exchange.Besides, Yunnan province is so diverse province. 

For a foreign teacher to come here, all the teachers and student are easier to talk with, though they have different opinion and they feel proud about being different you know. Even if it is not very easy to be different all the time. In addition, the ethnic law of Yunnan University started earlier and developed more comprehensively, and there are many outstanding scholars in this field, which is also a reason why I came to Yunnan University. Because I know that the academic development of national law is outstanding compared with other departmental laws in this field, which is of irreplaceable significance for academic research and exchange. These 20 years of communication and exchange have also proved my choice is right.

新媒体同学与玛丽亚教授交谈

问题二：

您刚刚提到了云南大学教师和学生身上的包容性是您印象最为深刻的，我想我们应该保持这样的优点。在您和云南大学合作的二十年里，云南和云南大学也发生了极大变化。就在今年，云南还设立了三个自由贸易区，促进民族地区经济发展和对外开放。您认为云南在少数民族保护方面有哪些进步，还有哪些地方可以借鉴挪威和欧洲地区的民族保护制度？

You just mentioned that the inclusiveness of teachers and students in Yunnan University is the most impressive thing for you. I think we should keep such advantages. In the 20 years of your cooperation with Yunnan University, Yunnan and Yunnan University have also undergone great changes. Just in this year, Yunnan has also established three free trade zones to promote economic to open to the outside world. What do you think are the progresses of Yunnan in the protection of ethnic minorities, because openness may cause some harm, and what other places can we learn from the national protection system in Norway and Europe?

玛丽亚教授：

在中国，你应该多研读中国的法律和宪法，特别是宪法第四条所指的民族平等意味着什么，为什么少数民族有权发展自己的语言和文化？世界的可持续发展需要我们去平衡医学、经济、环境问题和社会权利等各个研究领域。

再者，我们应当重视并找出实现可持续发展的途径，然后细致考虑到少数民族的权利。

一方面，我们需要有洞察整个环境的意识，意识到少数民族的处境，同时通过调研少数民族的方式去具体考量到他们实现权利的方式。因此，我认为，有效参与是一种必要方式。我们必须让少数民族自己去定义，定义民族的未来发展目标，明确民族的内心追求与愿景，因为我们希望每个人、每个民族能加入决策的环节。

在这里，我们试图讨论的不仅仅是经济发展或少数民族的话题，也讨论如何让少数民族参与并拥有决定的权力。例如，每个经济特区都有自己特殊的法律框架，他们有一定权力以自己的方式实现经济发展。当然，为了完善国家的保护体系，我们需要一系列的协商，我们应当以关切的态度去实现共享发展。我们需要明白少数民族群体真正关心的话题，而不是我们自认为他们想要的，更不是以一种傲慢态度去理想当然。

另一方面，我们需要保留少数民族的传统文化，因为传统文化是一个民族的特色，是让一个民族独立于世界文化之林的标志。明年10月，这里将会举办一场关于多样性公约的大型会议，这对于我们研究不同国家的民族或土著人民的文化与知识很重要，也能帮助我们寻找可持续发展的新途径。有时候，向中国学习很有必要，中国同样需要向世界学习，此种兼容并包的共识能够让我们彼此成就。

Professor Maria:

In China, you should read Chinese Constitution and laws, particularly article 4 of the Constitution. What does equality among nationalities? Why do the minority nationalities have the right to actually develop their language or their culture? The world should have to sustain the development and the area where we need to balance medical research, economic, we need to have an environmental concern and social where the rights come in，except that, to notice the way how to find out what is sustainable development taking into account from their rights.

On the one hand, we need to have a sense of insight into the whole environment, to be aware of the situation of ethnic minorities, and at the same time, we need to consider the realization of their rights by asking about ethnic minorities. So, I think effective participation is one of them. You have to let the minorities themselves define what their future development goals are and what they want to achieve in their hearts. Because we want everyone and every ethnic minority to join in the decision-making process.

Because we want everybody amd minorities to be there. Not only economic development or minorities, but you need to have a discussion to let them agree on what to do and involved with them in what to do. For example, a special economic zone which has a very particular legal framework, people could develop economic in their own way. To make national protection system better, we need to negotiate, and we need to understand what ethnic minorities really care about is not what we think they want.Do not take it for granted with an arrogant attitude. You should include an attitude of concern to achieve sharing development.

On the other hand, we need to preserve the traditional culture of ethnic minorities, which is their characteristic that make them unique in the world culture. In October next year, there will be a major conference on the Convention on diversity, and the culture and knowledge of peoples or indigenous peoples in different countries will be very important in finding new ways of sustainable development. Sometimes, it's good to learn from China, but it's also good for China to learn from the world. Having such a consensus and inclusiveness can make us achieve each other.

问题三：

刚才您提到，要向不同的人学习观点。我认为在此过程中，云南大学法学院的学生有参与云南法治建设的责任，我们也要对自己将做的工作充满信心。然而，有时学生会因为没有头绪而消极迷茫，您认为学生们应当调整这一困境呢？

Professor just mentioned that it is very important to learn from the different people, and I think it might be our duty for our law school students to participate in this. To work in Yunnan, legal construction is very necessary that we have to be confident about what we are going to do and we have to stay positive. However, students maybe a little passive when they have no idea to fulfill one’s ambition.Your honor,professor,what we should do to solve such predicament?

玛丽亚教授：

在中国，年轻人要听取前辈的意见似乎是一种天经地义的传统。既然如此，年轻人也有必要保持足够的谦卑和耐心。学生应当拥有更多的耐心，更加恭敬地寻求问题的答案，然后才能了解到个人力所能及之处。你们可以就此接受那些来自阅历丰富者的建议，就比如我们的大学老师们。

即使这样，我们有时还是会犯各种错误。坦白讲，没有人希望自己的孩子、朋友做错事，但有些是难以避免的，正如我们总有可能爱上错误的人。在这时，对于你们这个年纪的孩子来说，建设性的批评是很有利的。过去的错误能够让我们找出问题的根源，即使你也许暂时无法给出解决的途径，但尽管尝试吧，正如你在研二上学期还可以不断推翻你的硕士论文选题。你们应该积极地去探寻什么是我们需要解决的问题，作为法律人，不只要关注政治问题，也应当结合自己的专业，寻求合理有效的途径去解决困境。

Professor Maria: 

In china. that tradition is a young people need to listen to the old people all the time, so perhaps you should be modest and patient. Perhaps we should be a little bit more patient and ask for something respectfully, let's see what we can do. We take their advice of those having a lot of experience, just like our professors.

However, sometimes it's also good to make your own mistakes. Quite frankly, nobody wants their child or friend to make a mistake,like sometimes we fall in love with the wrong guy. At that time, constructive criticism is very good and sometimes for your age. Through our past mistake, we finally get what is the problem, Even if you may not be able to provide a solution for the time being, try it, just as you can constantly overturn the topic of your master's thesis. You should actively explore what is the problem we need to solve. You are a legal person. You can not only solve political problems, but also find some reasonable and effective ways to achieve it.

问题四：

正如您所说的，我们得考虑问题是怎么产生的。那么，我想问您一个关于学习的问题。上个学期我有幸参加了国际课程，受益匪浅。我发现，欧洲大学的法律教育和中国存在很大不同，这样的不同也体现于学习方法和学术理念等。您如何看待这种现象？您觉得云大学子在法律研习上还有哪些应当提升的地方？

In this way, we have to consider how the problem arises. I want to ask you a question about learning. Last semester, I had the honor to participate in international courses and benefited a lot. I found that the legal education in European universities is very different from that in China, and such differences also exist in the way of learning and academic concepts. Some students who came back from Oslo became more confident. So, what do you think of this phenomenon? What do you think should be improved in the study of law by students of Yunnan University?

玛丽亚教授：

我和陈云东教授曾经谈过这个问题，我们都认为法学生在学习专业知识之外，还有必要补充政治学、历史学等知识。

首先，只有你充分学习到历史背景和当今社会，你才能理解各种国家法律、政策的运行机制。为什么说在过去的历史中，很少有法律关注少数民族的权利。因为这受到历史环境的影响，封建社会很少有人会注意到这些。在欧洲第二次世界大战之前，法律发展程度较低，战争中的各种迫害让少数民族离开了他们生活几百年的土地。为何会出现这样的情况？从历史维度上看，正是由于当时的法律和政治的发展程度较低，当时的政府或统治者很难维护少数人的权利。尔后，时代的发展改善了这些问题。

其次，我们在分析一个案件时，应当充分意识到案情是否关涉少数民族问题。我们应当比较不同的案件，立足于少数民族的具体情况，给出符合实际的答案。我们也应当有批判思维，有同理心。因为我们知道，当我们在批判时，不能不分青红皂白地批评整个国家或某个群体，我们往往只是针对具体问题来分析。

正如你提到的，很多交流生在回国后更加自信，在学习上更加得心应手。对于这个现象，我认为学生的自信来自于个人。在奥斯陆大学，中国的孩子们在课业考试中都能取得很好的成绩，比本国的学生要好很多，这令我非常吃惊。另一方面，我认为是因为教学方式的不同，国外给予学生更多主动表达的机会。国外的老师会给出一些法律案例来倾听同学的意见，并鼓励学生活跃地思考以及给出不同的答案。我想，这样的教学模式让学生能更充分地认识自己。学生们即使不说，也会对自己有更多的期待。

Professor Maria:

I have talked to professor Chen YunDong，we both think it's very significant that you also study political science at the same time except law knowledge.

First of all, you can understand the implementation of various national laws and policies only if you fully learn the historical background and the current society. Why is it that  few laws in the past paid attention to the rights of ethnic minorities? Because this was the product of the environment at that time, few people in feudal society would notice this. Before the Second World War in Europe, the development of law was relatively low. Because of all kinds of persecution in the war, some ethnic minorities left the land where they lived for hundreds of years. No minority authorities why? And historically it is because at that, there were certain legal developments and political developments that made it very difficult to have minority rights at that time. Later on, it came, but after certain era development.

Secondly, when we look at the quality of a case, we should fully realize that this is for ethnic minorities. We should compare different cases, based on the situation of ethnic minorities, and then give practical answers. We should have critical thinking, but also empathy. Because we know that if we are not indiscriminately criticizing the whole country when we are criticizing, we tend to focus on specific issues.

When it comes to why students are more confident, I think students' confidence comes from individuals. At the University of Oslo, I am surprised that Chinese children can get very good grades in the course examination, which is much better than the students in our country. On the other hand, I think it's the difference of teaching methods. We give students more opportunities to express themselves. The teacher will give some legal cases to listen to students' opinions and encourage students to have active ideal and to give different answers. I think such a model enables students to have confidence for their own abilities.

问题五：

根据教授的解答，我明白我们很多时候缺乏问题意识，我们可能知道问题是什么，但不知道问题是如何产生的，也就无法有效地解决问题，这是我们应当在之后的学习中注意的。最后，问您关于学生交流项目的问题。据学生了解，奥斯陆大学与云南大学法学院的交流项目将暂告一段落，您对两大高校的后续交流有何期待或展望？

According to the professor's answer, I understand that we often lack the awareness of problems. We might know what it is, but we lack the ways and methods to solve problems, which we should pay attention to in the later study. Let us make a conclusion and ask you the last question. We have some news that the exchange project between us to university at Yunnan university come to an end for a for one time. What is your expectation or prospects for the follow up exchanges between two schools and deepening our friendship communication?

玛丽亚教授：

我多么希望我们可以继续保持交流项目，但聚散终有时，再见会有期。云南大学和奥斯陆大学交流的这些年，我不仅丰盈了学术知识，更与一些优秀的教师结下了深刻的友谊，比如王鑫，沈寿文，白纶老师等。然而，由于交流项目关乎于教学资源分配，也关乎我们得到的资金支持，所以项目不得不暂告一段落。

在过去的项目中，奥斯陆大学为交流学生设立了奖学金。这样的话，不仅家庭条件优渥的学生可以去交流，相对贫困的学生也可以去。如今，中国已是世界第二大经济体，大多数学生的生活水平也有所提升。所以，现实的是，交流发展资金会更多地流向比中国学生还需要资金的人和国家。如果云南大学的学生愿意自己出资交流，我们可以安排一些学习空间来支持，这也是后话。

我真诚的希望各位同学到外面的世界看看，不管是挪威还是别的国家。开阔视野对于法律学习者是很重要的，我们要将自身的发展置于世界中，即使出去交流的时间很短，也应该尝试。

我很感激这些年来与云南大学的交流。时光飞逝，我也见证了新旧校区的变迁，很多事情变了，但人与人之间的友谊和信赖是不变的。我希望奥斯陆大学和云南大学继续保持密切的学术交流，也衷心希望云南大学能够发展得更好。

Professor Maria：

I hope that we can continued the exchange, but sometimes everything that is fun has to have an end. In the years of communication between Yunnan University and Oslo University, I have not only enriched my academic knowledge, but also forged profound friendship with some excellent teachers, such as Wang Xin, Shen Shouwen, Bai Lun, etc. However, because these exchange projects are related to the allocation of teaching resources and the financial support we have received, we have to temporarily put an end to the project.

We have to see how we can do this; in past projects, the University of Oslo has set up scholarships for students, so that not only students with good family conditions can communicate, but also poor students can go. Today, China is the second largest economy in the world, and most students have become rich, so development funds will flow to people and countries who need more funds than Chinese students. If we can make students in Yunnan pay for themselves, then we may be able to arrange some learning space to support exchange learning, which is the next step.

I sincerely hope you can go out and have a look, whether it's Norway or other countries. It's very important for law learners to broaden their horizons. We should put our own development into the world. Even if the time for communication is very short, you should do it.

I am very grateful for the exchange with Yunnan University over the years. Time flies. I have witnessed the changes of the old and new campuses. Many things have changed, but the friendship and trust between people remain unchanged. I hope that Oslo University and Yunnan University will continue to maintain close academic exchanges and sincerely hope that Yunnan University can develop better.

合影留念

结语

今天的采访暂告段落，非常感谢玛丽亚教授不远万里来到云南大学，也诚挚感谢玛丽亚教授接受我们的采访。您的回答给予我们很多思考，我们也希望通过努力能为可持续发展和少数民族权利做一些贡献。挪威是一个美丽的国家，奥斯陆大学更是一所杰出的大学。祝愿两校友谊长存，云南大学法学院永远欢迎您的到来。

Professor Maria, thank you again for being so kind and accepting our interview. Your answer has given us a lot of thinking. We also hope to make some contributions to sustainable development and minority rights through our efforts. Norway is a beautiful country, and Oslo University is an outstanding university. May the friendship between the two universities last forever. Welcome to Yunnan University law school, always!

玛丽亚教授寄语

采访 ：王清荷 

张亦文 

王一鸣 

问题整理 ： 孙含笑

 刘泽慧

摄影 ：张德勇

 张淑兰